Clinuvel

K-dt147

Well-known member
if news comes in, shorters have no room to manipulate, so if you want to complain somewhere, complain at management.
But they do not answer. 🤷‍♂️

No one has complained here, well maybe one. I am very pleased with the price performance. By the way, the upway is also partly thanks to Shorty, who got out pretty clearly at the time of the increasing SP. There is already a connection there. And if you ask me, Shorty doesn't seem to be necessarily afraid about news. Let's hope they get caught on the wrong foot soon enough. I only post things that catch my eye and today ASIC happened to be a topic. It fit somehow..sorry mate 🍻
 
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Verharven

Well-known member
@Sherlock I haven't seen too many people complain about shorters apart from one vocal 'retired and aged' member (who I believe is not who they say they are - my view is that the person is really Ignoramus coming back here for some fun as he reads this board and comments on it all the time over at the nuthouse that is Yahoo! groups). I don't mind shorters as they can't short fundamentals of a company that will eventually run over them if they get the direction wrong long term, only if they are doing it in an unfair playing field - us retail holders don't have the ability to march SPs up and down by one share trade at a time - we would be killed by commission.
 

johnnytech

Moderator
Staff member
I haven't seen too many people complain about shorters apart from one vocal 'retired and aged' member (who I believe is not who they say they are
I have my serious doubts too. I no longer believe the narrative of Billy Boots being old and grumpy as an excuse for his accusations. The complaints about Dr. Wolgen or other insiders shorting are insane beyond belief. I question his agenda.

And suggestions of "Spill the Board" are completely disingenuous because it's mathematically impossible and those that say know it.

Events have changed my opinion recently, and I believe management is right for the job. They have damn legitimate frustrations about manipulative behavior on forums over the years that I glossed over. I'm pissed off.
 

Justinian

Well-known member
I have my serious doubts too. I no longer believe the narrative of Billy Boots being old and grumpy as an excuse for his accusations. The complaints about Dr. Wolgen or other insiders shorting are insane beyond belief. I question his agenda.
Genuine question, but is it possible that they are doing executive hedging? I don't mean for nefarious reasons, but just to balance risk given that their lifetime work is basically in a single stock. I couldn't find anything about Australia requiring disclosure, similar to the SEC rule update in 2018. I'm not familiar enough with the rules to know if that's a possibility or not.

I agree about some of the stuff said on here about people's complaints of daily stock price changes. I would like to remind those people of this chart posted in the annual report:
1634156423880.png
 

polyphemus

7th Longest Active Member
@Sherlock there is a 90% correlation between shareprice rise and shareprice falls due to short activity.
To answer question quickly - we have been complaining about Short manipulation since it started. The only shorting possible should be company sanctioned and on exchange listed products such as ETO puts.
What is frustrating is how ASIC pick and chooses its battles on retail investors that are on a stock forum with a very poor name, while not actively applying the same rules to International actors - Its a simple task - get the market participant to follow the rules.

Long winded version:
This is not a fair market place, we have very poor price formation (that is we dont know what the true market price is). We have a group that does not own the company telling the market where it thinks the price should be. I find their opinion interesting but irrelevant.
ASIC is correct to apply action to ramping plans but the pump and dump laws are 2 sided. And it is not just a CUV thing.
There are 3 issues at play.
1. There are ~1.9m shares short or 3.86% of fabricated shares/equity that have been artificially created in the company. Did the group that manages the real equity creation give their permission for artificial equity to be created - if not it is artifical and not transparent. Why should I be happy that a counterfeitter has destroyed fabricated equity - I am actually releived that fairness is returning to price. I agree with Justinian's speculation on where the lenders really are.
2. Strategy - shorting % has only one motive to buy back cheaper. Perhaps fair enough in a liquid market. They choose low liquidity securities as targets because the price is easier to manipulate with artificial selling pressure. It is artifical selling pressure because these groups actually don't own any shares to sell. It is often argued about the benefits of Short selling - but that is not ASIC's mandate - it is to keep a fair and orderly market - I refer to their guidance in RG265 the areas of interest for market participants https://download.asic.gov.au/media/4720070/rg265-published-4-may-2018.pdf:
RG 265.237 Under Rule 5.11.1, a market participant must notify ASIC in writing, as soon as practicable, if it has reasonable grounds to suspect that: (a) a person has placed an order or entered into a transaction on a market while in possession of inside information; or (b) a transaction, or an order transmitted to a trading platform of a market, has or is likely to have the effect of: (i) creating an artificial price for trading in financial products on a market; (ii) maintaining at a level that is artificial (whether or not it was previously artificial) a price for trading in financial products on a market; (iii) creating or causing the creation of a false or misleading appearance of active trading in financial products on a market; or (iv) creating or causing the creation of a false or misleading appearance with respect to the market, or price, for trading in financial products on a market.
.
3. Algo orders and layering - a market participant will not let you cross the spread if it is considered an Extreme to the ASX set market reference price. It has to be stepped down to alter the reference price. To manage this, the stock is layered at price steps and then marched down or up. The price steps are maintained on both sides to create an artificial confusion within human investors specifically targeting an emotional response to tease out real liquidity (either buy or sell side).

1634159924526.png
 
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macgyver

Well-known member
The price steps are maintained on both sides to create an artificial confusion within human investors specifically targeting an emotional response to tease out real liquidity (either buy or sell side).
That’s very interesting, years ago when I used to put small buy orders in to target the next price close to my buy in, the algo instantly changed the price up to the next price further along. It was as if they were trying to tease out a few more cents per share to profit. That’s probably common knowledge to everyone who’s watched it closely enough, you can only throw the algos out of whack with large buy orders where they have to rapidly change to keep up, not so much with sell orders particularly as there is low liquidity it becomes difficult to trump the algos. We saw the algos scrambling in the recent price rise.
 
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Dr Wally

Well-known member
Unsophisticated DW version = Shorting is legal but is selling shares these people DONT OWN, to only drive down SP, and for no good reason other than to turn over a quick dollar (working directly against 99% of the true owners that are long relying and trusting in company fundamentals) is a shit go: no?

Add algo manipulation of thousands of single digit micro trades throughout the trading day to the equation and its blatant manipulation of the market. Isnt that illegal?

Some longs with hundreds thousands of shares (that knowingly loan them?) silently appreciate the coin they get in return while waiting on glacial Clinuvel progress but everyone else seeing the price dive for no good reason, only BS shorting and algo manipulation, get demoralised and loose the opportunity to be able to sell some or all of the shares THEY OWN at a higher price.

BillyBoots is a fake Sharetease member?? 😬 Nooooooooooo!! 🙀 I thought I was pretty clueless about the sharemarket until I read some of the things good old Billy would ask and say poor old guy. 🙂

He seemed like such a lovely old fella. Billy please let us know that your a real person with a small Clinuvel investment just trying to help out the grandchildren?? 🤓

This news has broken my heart😭🥸.
 
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Verharven

Well-known member
@Justinian It's misleading as used to list the 200 shares in the ASX200, but now if you read the 'fine print' at the top, it is the top 200 listed 'companies' by market cap and many of those aren't 'companies' as includes ETFs (which of course are not in indexes else you are double dipping) as well as companies not eligible for ASX200 inclusion for several reasons e.g. too tightly held. CUV would have to plummet into the low teens for months on end before ASX200 exclusion was on the table.

My estimate is CUV are probably sitting at around position 160-170 in the ASX200, but struggling to find the full list that is updated with current SP and MC so you can sort it.
 
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